Discussion:
Forth compiled as an EXE
(too old to reply)
Richard S. Westmoreland
2004-09-16 15:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...

Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on Windows?

--
Richard S. Westmoreland
http://www.antisource.com
Jerry Avins
2004-09-16 16:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on Windows?
--
Richard S. Westmoreland
http://www.antisource.com
That depends on which Forth. Most will make stand-alone applications to
run on whatever OS they themselves run on. Access to the Forth kernel
that allows the user to add extensions is also possible with many.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Richard S. Westmoreland
2004-09-16 16:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Avins
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on Windows?
--
Richard S. Westmoreland
http://www.antisource.com
That depends on which Forth. Most will make stand-alone applications to
run on whatever OS they themselves run on. Access to the Forth kernel
that allows the user to add extensions is also possible with many.
Example of Forth programs that are EXE's? Something with a user interface?

Rick
Elizabeth D Rather
2004-09-16 17:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on
Windows?
Post by Jerry Avins
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
--
Richard S. Westmoreland
http://www.antisource.com
That depends on which Forth. Most will make stand-alone applications to
run on whatever OS they themselves run on. Access to the Forth kernel
that allows the user to add extensions is also possible with many.
Example of Forth programs that are EXE's? Something with a user interface?
As Jerry says, this is very much an issue for each individual Forth
implementation.

Our SwiftForth runs as an EXE. Purchased versions support packaging user
applications as turnkey EXEs, with or without the development system's
command window, although the inexpensive version doesn't support actually
removing the development system code. SwiftForth Pro allows you to modify
the kernel as you wish, keeping what you need, adding more features, and
deleting irrelevant code.

SwiftForth also lets you produce callable DLLs, which is sometimes very
useful.

Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310-491-3356
5155 W. Rosecrans Ave. #1018 Fax: +1 310-978-9454
Hawthorne, CA 90250
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
Gary Chanson
2004-09-16 17:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on
Windows?
Post by Jerry Avins
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
--
Richard S. Westmoreland
http://www.antisource.com
That depends on which Forth. Most will make stand-alone applications to
run on whatever OS they themselves run on. Access to the Forth kernel
that allows the user to add extensions is also possible with many.
Example of Forth programs that are EXE's? Something with a user interface?
There are a bunch on my web site at
http://www.mvps.org/ArcaneIncantations/programs.htm.
--
-GJC [MS Windows SDK MVP]
-Software Consultant (Embedded systems and Real Time Controls)
- http://www.mvps.org/ArcaneIncantations/consulting.htm
-***@mvps.org
Richard S. Westmoreland
2004-09-16 17:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
That depends on which Forth. Most will make stand-alone applications to
run on whatever OS they themselves run on. Access to the Forth kernel
that allows the user to add extensions is also possible with many.
Example of Forth programs that are EXE's? Something with a user
interface?
There are a bunch on my web site at
http://www.mvps.org/ArcaneIncantations/programs.htm.
You created a Forth version of cmd.exe? That is awesome!

Rick
Gary Chanson
2004-09-17 05:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
That depends on which Forth. Most will make stand-alone applications
to
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
run on whatever OS they themselves run on. Access to the Forth kernel
that allows the user to add extensions is also possible with many.
Example of Forth programs that are EXE's? Something with a user
interface?
There are a bunch on my web site at
http://www.mvps.org/ArcaneIncantations/programs.htm.
You created a Forth version of cmd.exe? That is awesome!
From a programmer's perspective is definitely is. From a user's point
of view, they can't tell what it was written in.
--
-GJC [MS Windows SDK MVP]
-Software Consultant (Embedded systems and Real Time Controls)
- http://www.mvps.org/ArcaneIncantations/consulting.htm
-***@mvps.org
Gary Chanson
2004-09-17 06:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
That depends on which Forth. Most will make stand-alone applications
to
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
run on whatever OS they themselves run on. Access to the Forth kernel
that allows the user to add extensions is also possible with many.
Example of Forth programs that are EXE's? Something with a user
interface?
There are a bunch on my web site at
http://www.mvps.org/ArcaneIncantations/programs.htm.
You created a Forth version of cmd.exe? That is awesome!
By the way, Quest32's editor/IDE has a built-in wizard which will
automatically create bare bones Windows GUI and console applications for you
automatically. Tell it what features you want and it will generate the
Quest32 source for a working (do nothing) program. The editor and other
tools are of course written in Forth too.
--
-GJC [MS Windows SDK MVP]
-Software Consultant (Embedded systems and Real Time Controls)
- http://www.mvps.org/ArcaneIncantations/consulting.htm
-***@mvps.org
Stefan Schmiedl
2004-09-16 19:58:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:42:18 -0400,
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on
Windows?
SwiftForth does this, VfxForth as well, on RetroForths website,
you can even find an online compiler for your code ...
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Jerry Avins
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
--
Richard S. Westmoreland
http://www.antisource.com
That depends on which Forth. Most will make stand-alone applications to
run on whatever OS they themselves run on. Access to the Forth kernel
that allows the user to add extensions is also possible with many.
Example of Forth programs that are EXE's? Something with a user interface?
I'm currently working on a set of applications doing all kinds of stuff
from extracting data out of a COBOL-based system to storing it in a MySQL
database while allowing the user to meddle with it in small and simple GUIs
in between.

After some customisation of the SwiftForth environment (IDE ca. 500 kB)
my deployed applications are about 250 kB each.

s.
--
Stefan Schmiedl
EDV-Beratung, Programmierung, Schulung
Am Bräuweiher 4, 93499 Zandt, Germany
Tel. (0 99 44) 30 68 98, Fax (0 99 44) 30 68 97
Public Key: http://xss.de/stefan.public

shhhh ... I can't hear my code!
IncuboArtico
2004-11-06 20:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Probably is a proprietary code, I'm trying to connect to a mySQL to
read/write records. Can you give me just a direction of work? Thanks!
Paolo
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-16 21:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on Windows?
The short answer is "yes".

The slightly longer answer is there also Forths that do the same for the
Mac OS and other OS's, complete with GUI. The end user need not know
that the program is written in Forth, and wouldn't know unless he/she is
told.

Regards,

-Doug
m-coughlin
2004-09-17 14:13:15 UTC
Permalink
For an attempt at brevity, I'm combining two separate articles.
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on Windows?
The short answer is "yes".
The slightly longer answer is there also Forths that do the
same for the Mac OS and other OS's, complete with GUI. The
end user need not know that the program is written in Forth,
and wouldn't know unless he/she is told.
A much more important question, is "Why does somebody have
to ask this question?" Why isn't there a useful program, written
in Forth, that the user is told is written in Forth? Then maybe
we would have people asking "I like using this program written
in Forth. How can I learn to program in Forth myself?"
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be
run on Windows?
Add Win32Forth to the list; version 6 (a development of Tom
Zimmer's version 4.2 with many changes "under the covers")
can build standalone .EXE files.
See http://groups.yahho.com/group/win32forth or
should be http://groups.yahoo.com/group/win32forth/
Post by Doug Hoffman
http://www.win32forth.org/ for
details. DLLs will be supported -- eventually. There are some
nice apps; an editor integrated with the development
environment that can be used standalone (based on Scintilla),
a picture viewer, and others.
Here is one answer to my question above. Whatever good
applications the above references lead to are buried where only
the most dedicate search will find them. Why not have the editor
and picture viewer posted on the numerous freeware/shareware
sites for anybody to find? Are these programs as well designed
as similar non-Forth written programs? Or would they only be of
use to somebody who already knows about Win32Forth?

When I search the web for the best applications written in
any language, I always keep an eye out for something written in
Forth. I've only found the dead bones of old Forth programs that
the authors have lost interest in, and sometimes (horrors!) have
even decided to update by rewriting in another language.

--
Michael Coughlin m-***@comcast.net Cambridge, MA USA
Stephen Pelc
2004-09-17 16:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by m-coughlin
A much more important question, is "Why does somebody have
to ask this question?" Why isn't there a useful program, written
in Forth, that the user is told is written in Forth? Then maybe
we would have people asking "I like using this program written
in Forth. How can I learn to program in Forth myself?"
As I have posted several times before:

www.ccssa.com
for the system that planned the Hong Kong airport and metro.
A Forth app of over 850,000 lines of source code.

www.maestro.com.au
for the HAL 4000 PABX. Uses the MPE ARM VFX Forth cross
compiler and the MPE PowerNet TCP/IP stack.

Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, ***@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads
Richard S. Westmoreland
2004-09-17 21:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Pelc
Post by m-coughlin
A much more important question, is "Why does somebody have
to ask this question?" Why isn't there a useful program, written
in Forth, that the user is told is written in Forth? Then maybe
we would have people asking "I like using this program written
in Forth. How can I learn to program in Forth myself?"
www.ccssa.com
for the system that planned the Hong Kong airport and metro.
A Forth app of over 850,000 lines of source code.
I think I did see that on the shelf at Walmart once.

Rick
Jerry Avins
2004-09-17 22:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Post by Stephen Pelc
Post by m-coughlin
A much more important question, is "Why does somebody have
to ask this question?" Why isn't there a useful program, written
in Forth, that the user is told is written in Forth? Then maybe
we would have people asking "I like using this program written
in Forth. How can I learn to program in Forth myself?"
www.ccssa.com
for the system that planned the Hong Kong airport and metro.
A Forth app of over 850,000 lines of source code.
I think I did see that on the shelf at Walmart once.
Rick
You must have seen the stripped-down version for Gameboy.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Alex McDonald
2004-09-19 11:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by m-coughlin
Post by Alex McDonald
Add Win32Forth to the list; version 6 (a development of Tom
Zimmer's version 4.2 with many changes "under the covers")
can build standalone .EXE files.
See http://groups.yahho.com/group/win32forth or
should be http://groups.yahoo.com/group/win32forth/
my bad
Post by m-coughlin
Post by Alex McDonald
http://www.win32forth.org/ for
details. DLLs will be supported -- eventually. There are some
nice apps; an editor integrated with the development
environment that can be used standalone (based on Scintilla),
a picture viewer, and others.
Here is one answer to my question above. Whatever good
applications the above references lead to are buried where only
the most dedicate search will find them. Why not have the editor
and picture viewer posted on the numerous freeware/shareware
sites for anybody to find? Are these programs as well designed
as similar non-Forth written programs? Or would they only be of
use to somebody who already knows about Win32Forth?
We're shy and retiring types.

More seriously, the environment for standalone .EXEs is pretty good, but
there are a few wrinkles that need ironed out for the big time. As an
example, last resort error handling throws up a Forth console right now. And
these I wouldn't consider apps (with no offence intended to the respective
authors); they're really excellent tools and parts. We need to find and
write an app where Forth makes the difference; I've not thought about what
that might be.
--
Regards
Alex McDonald
Astrobe
2004-09-20 16:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by m-coughlin
A much more important question, is "Why does somebody have
to ask this question?" Why isn't there a useful program, written
in Forth, that the user is told is written in Forth? Then maybe
we would have people asking "I like using this program written
in Forth. How can I learn to program in Forth myself?"
Maybe because the favorite playground of Forth is embedded systems.
Maybe because Desktop computers are not good enough for Forth. Maybe
Forth is not as well fitted as other languages to manage the awful
complexity of these environments, because they were designed for and
grew in this infamous matrix.

Amicalement,
Astrobe
Richard S. Westmoreland
2004-09-20 16:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Astrobe
Post by m-coughlin
A much more important question, is "Why does somebody have
to ask this question?" Why isn't there a useful program, written
in Forth, that the user is told is written in Forth? Then maybe
we would have people asking "I like using this program written
in Forth. How can I learn to program in Forth myself?"
Maybe because the favorite playground of Forth is embedded systems.
Maybe because Desktop computers are not good enough for Forth. Maybe
Forth is not as well fitted as other languages to manage the awful
complexity of these environments, because they were designed for and
grew in this infamous matrix.
Amicalement,
Astrobe
Now enter the MISC chips...

"Maybe because Desktop computers are not good enough for Forth"

Many years ago my company put me through an Effective Personal Productivity
class. One of the most valuable lessons from it was realizing that
Effectiveness triumphs Efficiency. A company interested in making money
wants the solution in 3 months, not 3 years. Sure it's not going to be as
efficient, but if it can do the job, then it has met the need.

Desktop computers have the interface that humans need. Keyboard, mouse,
monitor. A hard drive for mass storage. Enough memory to run programs. A
fast processor to get over the hurdle of inefficient design. Ironically it
is the bloat of Desktop computers that drives the technology market forward.
But as we do so, we do consolidate the bloatd. Athlon 64 now has the memory
controller on die. Sound and ethernet components are being designed into
the motherboard. Instead of PS2, Serial, Parallel, Firewire, etc. We're
taking advantage of multiple USB ports. Effectiveness won, efficiency comes
later.

Is Forth can do it better, then let's see it do better. Redesign the
hardware from the ground up. Write an OS. Write software for it. Market
it, sell it, support it. If Forth is too good for the masses or
non-specialized computers, then it is nothing more than an embedded snob.
;-)

Ricki
Mark Probert
2004-09-20 21:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi ..
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Desktop computers have the interface that humans need.
Is that true? They have an interface that is convenient if your idea of
"interface" is writing text on paper. I don't think that interface, that
metaphor, works so well in other areas of "human need". This is why most
people talk to each other rather than write .. :-)
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Ironically it is the bloat of Desktop computers that drives
the technology market forward.
I don't think so. It had more to do with sales and marketing and what
was convenient at the time. Have a look at the excellent essay by Neal
Stephenson:

http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Is Forth can do it better, then let's see it do better. Redesign the
hardware from the ground up. Write an OS. Write software for it.
Chuck Moore, whose name may be familiar, did (does?) just that. You have
a computer designed to do a task really well. That is its job. See

http://www.colorforth.com/

For more details.

An, no, I don't think that his system is Win32 compatibile and, no, I
don't think that it will ever support Word 2000.

;-)
--
-mark. (probertm @ acm dot org)
Richard S. Westmoreland
2004-09-20 21:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Probert
Hi ..
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Desktop computers have the interface that humans need.
Is that true? They have an interface that is convenient if your idea of
"interface" is writing text on paper. I don't think that interface, that
metaphor, works so well in other areas of "human need". This is why most
people talk to each other rather than write .. :-)
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Ironically it is the bloat of Desktop computers that drives
the technology market forward.
I don't think so. It had more to do with sales and marketing and what
was convenient at the time. Have a look at the excellent essay by Neal
http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Is Forth can do it better, then let's see it do better. Redesign the
hardware from the ground up. Write an OS. Write software for it.
Chuck Moore, whose name may be familiar, did (does?) just that. You have
a computer designed to do a task really well. That is its job. See
http://www.colorforth.com/
For more details.
An, no, I don't think that his system is Win32 compatibile and, no, I
don't think that it will ever support Word 2000.
Your responses are typical of a Forther, not an average consumer. You're
defending the way Forth is used now with Forth principles. Would electronic
appliances be so popular if every single plug had a different configuration
for the outlet which was wired to a custom voltage?

Rick
Mark Probert
2004-09-21 01:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Your responses are typical of a Forther, not an average consumer.
You're defending the way Forth is used now with Forth principles.
Would electronic appliances be so popular if every single plug had a
different configuration for the outlet which was wired to a custom
voltage?
No, they wouldn't. However, I use an iron to press my shirts, not my
toaster. And my welder is on 240v rather than 120v.

Take a pragmatic approach today and the future will work itself out. Will
it be one of monlithic hardware and operating systems? Or will it be one
of multiple dedicated systems, each doing a simple task, interworking?

Personally, I like the idea of the second one. What your "average
consumer" will "want" is debateable.

BTW, how many microprocessors are there in a new car? How many new cars
are running Linux? Windows? Perhaps this may point a way forward?
--
-mark. (probertm @ acm dot org)
Mark Bottomley
2004-09-21 02:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Probert
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Your responses are typical of a Forther, not an average consumer.
You're defending the way Forth is used now with Forth principles.
Would electronic appliances be so popular if every single plug had a
different configuration for the outlet which was wired to a custom
voltage?
No, they wouldn't. However, I use an iron to press my shirts, not my
toaster. And my welder is on 240v rather than 120v.
Take a pragmatic approach today and the future will work itself out. Will
it be one of monlithic hardware and operating systems? Or will it be one
of multiple dedicated systems, each doing a simple task, interworking?
Personally, I like the idea of the second one. What your "average
consumer" will "want" is debateable.
BTW, how many microprocessors are there in a new car? How many new cars
are running Linux? Windows? Perhaps this may point a way forward?
--
The successful approach is to make the result idiot resistant for the
"average
consuner". My favourite example of this is the fax machine. It takes a page
of
typically text and digitizes it for reproduction at the other end. The input
was
often printed out from a computer to start with. It takes about 60 seconds a
page
to transmit at 9600 baud. The contents of the page is typically 2-3K
characters and could have been sent over a 9600 baud modem in 2-3 seconds.
In 60 seconds, you could send a significant sized word processing file. The
average person who wanted to send a page of text often couldn't convince two
modems to talk to each other easily or consistently when the fax machine
appeared (pre WWW). Faxes were created to be used by people who needed
only dial a phone and operate a photo copier. Faxes are being superceded by
email
and attachments, but they still serve the computer illiterate, provide proof
of
receipt, and are acceptable for legally binding contracts - features not yet
available
at the same reliability or legal standing in email.

Second query - I believe that current cars have typically 6-8 micros at the
low end
with top end fancy cars with all the bells and whistles have more than 50
micros.

Mark....
Gary Chanson
2004-09-21 02:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Probert
Take a pragmatic approach today and the future will work itself out. Will
it be one of monlithic hardware and operating systems? Or will it be one
of multiple dedicated systems, each doing a simple task, interworking?
Personally, I like the idea of the second one. What your "average
consumer" will "want" is debateable.
Easy. They will want both.
--
-GJC [MS Windows SDK MVP]
-Software Consultant (Embedded systems and Real Time Controls)
- http://www.mvps.org/ArcaneIncantations/consulting.htm
-***@mvps.org
don groves
2004-09-21 03:54:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Chanson
Post by Mark Probert
Take a pragmatic approach today and the future will work itself out. Will
it be one of monlithic hardware and operating systems? Or will it be one
of multiple dedicated systems, each doing a simple task, interworking?
Personally, I like the idea of the second one. What your "average
consumer" will "want" is debateable.
Easy. They will want both.
They'll take either. What they want is something that works as
advertised, all the time, every time.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
Richard S. Westmoreland
2004-09-21 12:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by don groves
Post by Gary Chanson
Post by Mark Probert
Take a pragmatic approach today and the future will work itself out.
Will
Post by don groves
Post by Gary Chanson
Post by Mark Probert
it be one of monlithic hardware and operating systems? Or will it be one
of multiple dedicated systems, each doing a simple task, interworking?
Personally, I like the idea of the second one. What your "average
consumer" will "want" is debateable.
Easy. They will want both.
They'll take either. What they want is something that works as
advertised, all the time, every time.
Microsoft won, Novell lost. They just want something that is advertised.

Rick
Paul E. Bennett
2004-09-21 17:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Probert
Take a pragmatic approach today and the future will work itself out. Will
it be one of monlithic hardware and operating systems? Or will it be one
of multiple dedicated systems, each doing a simple task, interworking?
Personally, I like the idea of the second one. What your "average
consumer" will "want" is debateable.
BTW, how many microprocessors are there in a new car? How many new cars
are running Linux? Windows? Perhaps this may point a way forward?
In doing a large robotics project some years ago (1980's) I had the
opportunity to use a PC based tool to calculate the system integrity. The
chosen design was based around two large centralised PLC's and a relay
based third channel.

When I had some spare time in the office I re-ran the integrity
calculations using a differnt basis for the machine organisation. Each
individual motor of the robotic system (some 35 of them) having its own
control processor and each group of motors being permitted to operate by a
further processor (per group) the integrity figure was calculated in a very
short time and showed an improvement over the centralised control system
(without the relay based third channel).

In this case it was easy to show that distrubuting the control effort
amongst many independent processors not only improved integrity it also
simplified the overall system. Creating systems with Forth is very like
deciding to distribute the control across many processors.

Since doing that integrity calculation exercise I have always explored ways
of distributing the control over as many processors as there are motors in
the first instance and added a few more where motor functions were sensibly
grouped.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://***@a...>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE......
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details.
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************
Jeff Fox
2004-09-21 22:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul E. Bennett
Creating systems with Forth is very like
deciding to distribute the control across many processors.
Can you elaborate?
Paul E. Bennett
2004-09-22 21:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Fox
Post by Paul E. Bennett
Creating systems with Forth is very like
deciding to distribute the control across many processors.
Can you elaborate?
I was referring to the the style of systems I create. Usually my systems
have several small tasks, usually running co-operatively, that perform
specific functions of the overall system. The multi-tasking nature in Forth
is so inherently sound that it is almost like having a separate processor
per task. Not interfering with each other, just getting on with their own
thing and doing it very well.

As I indicated, in my previous post, I tend to lean towards putting at
least one processor per actuator drive in any robotic, machine control or
process control application. When I get into the processors firmware it is
like continuing the distributed notions further down towards the metals.

If it still isn't clear then I probably have done a poor job explaining the
notion.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://***@a...>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE......
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details.
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************
unknown
2004-09-23 04:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul E. Bennett
As I indicated, in my previous post, I tend to lean towards putting at
least one processor per actuator drive in any robotic, machine control or
process control application. When I get into the processors firmware it is
like continuing the distributed notions further down towards the metals.
I have the same philosophy. I find that the resulting systems cost
less, perform better, and are much more resistant to being buggy,
because the seperayte procvessors force encapulation and well-defined
interfaces between different software routines.
--
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com>
Jeff Fox
2004-09-23 22:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
I have the same philosophy. I find that the resulting systems cost
less, perform better, and are much more resistant to being buggy,
because the seperayte procvessors force encapulation and well-defined
interfaces between different software routines.
Terms and concepts often used in object oriented programming
seem to be a natural fit to a multi-processing issues.

Best Wishes
Jeff Fox
2004-09-23 22:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul E. Bennett
I was referring to the the style of systems I create. Usually my systems
have several small tasks, usually running co-operatively, that perform
specific functions of the overall system. The multi-tasking nature in Forth
is so inherently sound that it is almost like having a separate processor
per task. Not interfering with each other, just getting on with their own
thing and doing it very well.
As I indicated, in my previous post, I tend to lean towards putting at
least one processor per actuator drive in any robotic, machine control or
process control application. When I get into the processors firmware it is
like continuing the distributed notions further down towards the metals.
Thanks. I asked because of my long-held interest in multi-tasking/
multi-processing. I was just fishing for an explanation from you
that might be used with people who have never factored problems,
or Forth in that way.
Post by Paul E. Bennett
If it still isn't clear then I probably have done a poor job explaining the
notion.
No, I think you explained it well. It is a different style of Forth than
that used by many Forth programmers. I will not go into any analysis
except to note that factoring has a very different meaning there than
that used by most people and that things like multi-tasking/multi-programming
are outside of the Standard.

I am currious though, do you manage such projects as multiple projects
on multiple micros or do you use Forth extensions to manage the
factoring for a multi-processing environment? One project with
multiple system sources or one system with compilation for multiple
targets? Etc.?

Others who have dealt with these issues are free to offer any
explanation of their experiences.

Best Wishes
Paul E. Bennett
2004-09-24 16:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Fox
Thanks. I asked because of my long-held interest in multi-tasking/
multi-processing. I was just fishing for an explanation from you
that might be used with people who have never factored problems,
or Forth in that way.
If that suited your purpose feel free to use the example.
Post by Jeff Fox
Post by Paul E. Bennett
If it still isn't clear then I probably have done a poor job explaining
the notion.
No, I think you explained it well. It is a different style of Forth than
that used by many Forth programmers. I will not go into any analysis
except to note that factoring has a very different meaning there than
that used by most people and that things like
multi-tasking/multi-programming are outside of the Standard.
My style grew from dealing witha 4k (hand crafted) machine code programme
for a 6800 based project. When, about 10 to 11 years later I discovered a
bokk on Forth I knew that Forth would suit my style very well. I had done
my machine code as amall, simple routines that acted more like physical
components of the system I was building. It was highly modular and ran
about 3 threads IIRC. That equipment performed for 25 years without needing
modifications to the code despite the surrounding plant being upgraded
twice for bigger tanks and mixers.
Post by Jeff Fox
I am currious though, do you manage such projects as multiple projects
on multiple micros or do you use Forth extensions to manage the
factoring for a multi-processing environment? One project with
multiple system sources or one system with compilation for multiple
targets? Etc.?
It becomes a hierarchy of projects and sub-projects for sure.

For each motor or actuator in a system I assign a micro-processor to it.
There are only 28 types of controller needed to cope with the various
motor/actuator types (7) and the different forms of feedback (4) that are
applicable to such systems.

Each of these processors runs at least two tasks. One is a communications
taks that allows the controller to pass data and receive commands. The
other task looks after control of the actuator and reading the feedback. On
occassion I have also utilised a third and fourth task (one for continuous
analogue input reading, the other for health state monitoring).

Depending on the complexity of the overall system I may look to identify
logical groupings of actuators and place a further controller system that
acts as a local master/group controller. For higher integrity controllers a
second processor is added whose only task is to monitor the machine state
independently of the actuator controllers and determine the safe pattern of
"permits to operate" to provide. For simpler systems a two layer
architecture often suffices.

I very rarely get involved in the user interface levels of big projects,
apart from the necessary meetings with those who do the programming of the
display console equipment, to ensure we agree on the messaging protocols to
be used.

My current project uses three TDS2020 based microcontrollers, an Allen
Bradley PLC and a SunServer based computer system (which provides the user
interface level). Someone else is doing the SunServer software part of the
project. I am dealing with the Allen Bradley and the TDS2020 portion.

Much of the factorisation can be simplified by taking a really close look
at actuators and what you need to protect the equipment and personnel.
Using the most appropriate technology for each protective element does give
you a mix of technology in the controller (yes I do still use a number of
relays). Once you have each actuator controller mapped out then it becomes
quite a simple matter to design a command and acknowledgement dialogue to
allow the console operator to observe plant state and effect the desired
control.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://***@a...>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE......
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details.
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************
Benjamin Ketcham
2004-09-24 18:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Probert
Take a pragmatic approach today and the future will work itself out. Will
it be one of monlithic hardware and operating systems? Or will it be one
of multiple dedicated systems, each doing a simple task, interworking?
Personally, I like the idea of the second one. What your "average
consumer" will "want" is debateable.
BTW, how many microprocessors are there in a new car? How many new cars
are running Linux? Windows? Perhaps this may point a way forward?
Is your point that cars *aren't* running these OSes? Because more
and more, they are. Linux, and sadly/predictably, Windows.

It is cool that one of the big US manufacturers (GM?) is using
embedded Linux. However, beware(!), because MS is working on getting
into car dashes, and once they do, well you know the story...
ISTR a version of WinCE was being developed for one of the Japanese car
companies? Anyway, the technical best (even given a jump on the
market) does not always win.

People will want the media player in their dash that handles all the
right formats; think about it. Streaming media in cars will become
a hugely important *advertising* medium, just as cars are one of the
biggest markets for radio now. MS will want to own this market.

----

IMO, the car environment in particular would be improved if there
were fewer "opaque" embedded CPUs controlling stuff in a non-configurable,
non-queryable way, and if instead more of the basic engine systems and
stuff could be "reached" from a general-purpose CPU. Running Linux, in
my preference. The embedded CPUs could still be there, but of course it
makes sense to minimize them once you have the general-purpose computer
present. As much as I think little networks of obscure embedded CPUs are
cool, my car would be most useful to me (as a hacker) if it had an x86 in it.

--Benjamin
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-24 21:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin Ketcham
IMO, the car environment in particular would be improved if there
were fewer "opaque" embedded CPUs controlling stuff in a non-configurable,
non-queryable way, and if instead more of the basic engine systems and
stuff could be "reached" from a general-purpose CPU. Running Linux, in
my preference. The embedded CPUs could still be there, but of course it
makes sense to minimize them once you have the general-purpose computer
present. As much as I think little networks of obscure embedded CPUs are
cool, my car would be most useful to me (as a hacker) if it had an x86 in it.
"Hacking" your car/truck is probably not a good idea, even if you could
figure out how to do it. There are many regulated electronic aspects of
today's vehicles including safety and emission related items. The
complexity is becoming enormous and it is an area where only the *very*
knowledgeable OEM engineer should play. We are now seeing things such
as drive by wire (no throttle cable!). Redundant backup cpus are in
place there. The electronic stability control system, not to mention
the engine controller and transmission controller, should not be toyed
with as any mistakes could be very serious.

One rather important advantage to having "smart" peripherals peppered
about the vehicle connected by a simple 2-wire bus is the tremendous
savings in cost and complexity of the copper wire harnesses and their
connectors. Not to mention the weight savings in copper, which is
significant.

Regards,

-Doug
Jan Coombs
2004-09-26 22:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Benjamin Ketcham
IMO, the car environment in particular would be improved if there
were fewer "opaque" embedded CPUs controlling stuff in a non-configurable,
non-queryable way, . . .
"Hacking" your car/truck is probably not a good idea, even if you could
figure out how to do it.
I'm unconvinced. I do not hack my desktop pc, but being an open system,
I know that if all else failed I could try to fix it, but likely, more
capable people would do so first, and publish their findings.

As to the quality of software in the front end of the car: The wiper
switch forgets it's setting when ignition is off. The horn and washer
are so well debounced that you need to be patient waiting for either to
start working, and then still cannot creatively squirt or play tunes.
The ticking sound for the turn indicators is suspended if a more urgent
warning sound is needed.

The electric power steering fails sometimes, maybe due to unusual
stopping, and is restored sometimes when the car exceeds 10 MPH.

Just once after a short stop it let me crank the engine as much as I
pleased, but showed no interest in squirting diesel in. The car refused
to communicate with the repair man's diagnostic box, but I'll not need
to call him again, now I've seen how to use the quick release battery
connector.
Post by Doug Hoffman
. . . We are now seeing things such
as drive by wire (no throttle cable!). Redundant backup cpus are in
place there.
When the loose mat went over my d.b.w. (n.t.c!) pedal, the engine revved
excessively, just like with the mechanical pedal. A quick tug was a
short term fix, and installing the proper fastenings the correct long
term one. But when were the redundant backup cpus goint to cut in?
Post by Doug Hoffman
The electronic stability control system, not to mention
the engine controller and transmission controller, should not be toyed
with as any mistakes could be very serious.
Ok, I wouldn't play here, but showing me the requirements for safe
operation would impress this on me better than stopping me looking.
Post by Doug Hoffman
One rather important advantage to having "smart" peripherals peppered
about the vehicle connected by a simple 2-wire bus is the tremendous
savings in cost and complexity of the copper wire harnesses and their
connectors. Not to mention the weight savings in copper, which is
significant.
And if I have a legitimate reason for wanting to monitor the comms to my
rear light clusters, then this would likely be more safely achieved by
using open standards.

The previous car had a basic electrical control system, and mechanical
diesel injection pump. At present this still seems to offer better
reliability and cheaper maintenance.

Jan Coombs.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Jerry Avins
2004-09-26 22:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Jan Coombs wrote:

...
Post by Jan Coombs
I'm unconvinced. I do not hack my desktop pc, but being an open system,
I know that if all else failed I could try to fix it, but likely, more
capable people would do so first, and publish their findings.
...
Post by Jan Coombs
The previous car had a basic electrical control system, and mechanical
diesel injection pump. At present this still seems to offer better
reliability and cheaper maintenance.
Jan Coombs.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
I have my own war story, but the car is now too old for it to matter.

You did the maker of your car a kindness by not disclosing its name, but
it doesn't deserve it. Please tell me who it is so I'll know what to
avoid.

My friend's recent Saab had two transmissions replaced -- only the last
at Saab's expense -- because a bad ground on one of the monitoring
computers caused a light to come on. The car never gave any actual
trouble, but it couldn't pass inspection with the light on.

Jerry
--
... they proceeded on the sound principle that the magnitude of a lie
always contains a certain factor of credibility, ... and that therefor
... they more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a little one ...
A. H.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-27 00:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Coombs
I'm unconvinced. I do not hack my desktop pc, but being an open system,
I know that if all else failed I could try to fix it, but likely, more
capable people would do so first, and publish their findings.
Jan,

There are legal issues. The EPA requires an incredible amount of
complexity directly in that *any* device whatsoever on the vehicle that
could possibly affect emissions must be monitored by the cpu. Any
suspected "faults" must light the "check engine" indicator. Also, just
meeting the extremely low emissions standards require sophisticated
computer control of the engine management system.

If you hack your car/truck and have an accident that injures someone
there are lawyers that would have a field day with you. The
manufacturers themselves have enough problems with that.

Regards,

-Doug
Ed Beroset
2004-09-27 01:36:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Jan Coombs
I'm unconvinced. I do not hack my desktop pc, but being an open system,
I know that if all else failed I could try to fix it, but likely, more
capable people would do so first, and publish their findings.
Jan,
There are legal issues. The EPA requires an incredible amount of
complexity directly in that *any* device whatsoever on the vehicle that
could possibly affect emissions must be monitored by the cpu.
The EPA has no jurisdiction in the UK.
Post by Doug Hoffman
Any
suspected "faults" must light the "check engine" indicator. Also, just
meeting the extremely low emissions standards require sophisticated
computer control of the engine management system.
People responding to this seem to be unaware that there is a whole
industry devoted to just this sort of "hacking." Engine tuning by
"chipping" the car (i.e. replacing the firmware in the engine control
unit) is pretty common, especially for performance cars. As one
example, see http://www.goapr.com/Porsche/products/ecu_upgrade_996tt.html
for a company which offers not only a replacement chip but a whole
aftermarket replacement ECU for the Porsche twin-turbo 996.
Post by Doug Hoffman
If you hack your car/truck and have an accident that injures someone
there are lawyers that would have a field day with you.
If you have an accident that injures someone, it probably won't matter
whether you've modified the car or not.
Post by Doug Hoffman
The manufacturers themselves have enough problems with that.
Are you citing some urban legend or inventing a new one? Which
manufacturer has ever been successfully sued over a fault in the
computer control? I've never heard of one.

To the OP: sensible caution is reasonable, but like you, I don't
consider any portion of my car off limits for investigation. If yours
is a newer car, you'll probably have an OBD-II (sometimes called OBDC --
OnBoard Diagnostics Computer) connector on it for diagnostics. You can
get a wealth of information via this standardized connector and that
would be an excellent application for Forth. This web site
http://www.andywhittaker.com/ecu/obdii_software.htm lists the trials
and tribulations of somebody trying to get Windows to do this protocol
-- it would be much simple with Forth, IMHO. Google for OBD-II and
you'll find much much more.

Ed

Ed
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-27 02:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Jan Coombs
I'm unconvinced. I do not hack my desktop pc, but being an open system,
I know that if all else failed I could try to fix it, but likely, more
capable people would do so first, and publish their findings.
Jan,
There are legal issues. The EPA requires an incredible amount of
complexity directly in that *any* device whatsoever on the vehicle that
could possibly affect emissions must be monitored by the cpu.
The EPA has no jurisdiction in the UK.
Of course. But Europe is closely watching the US EPA and the trend
appears to be they will follow with very similar regulations, if they
haven't already. Euro III regs are here with EURO IV regs to closely
follow.
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
Any
suspected "faults" must light the "check engine" indicator. Also, just
meeting the extremely low emissions standards require sophisticated
computer control of the engine management system.
People responding to this seem to be unaware that there is a whole
industry devoted to just this sort of "hacking." Engine tuning by
"chipping" the car (i.e. replacing the firmware in the engine control
unit) is pretty common, especially for performance cars. As one
example, see http://www.goapr.com/Porsche/products/ecu_upgrade_996tt.html
for a company which offers not only a replacement chip but a whole
aftermarket replacement ECU for the Porsche twin-turbo 996.
Sure, you can do that. You can even remove your catalytic converter, as
a private citizen (at least in the US). A business would be liable for
a $10,000 fine for each vehicle it tampered with. But if your state or
region implements a "smog check" program where your vehicle must pass
inspection every year or two in order to get re-registered, you will be
up a creek. Good luck selling a car like that. These "smog check"
programs are being implemented in more and more regions of the US due to
EPA's recent redefinition of acceptable air quality. Btw, the EPA isn't
stupid. They are well aware of these after-market "modifications".
What's going to happen next I don't know. Personally, I wouldn't touch
a thing on my car.


Also, did you read the disclaimer in the URL you gave? It says:

"LEGALITY: We make no claims as to emission performance for street or
highway use. Some equipment is not sold for street use in any state or
country where state or federal regulations prohibit its use. Some items
listed in the online catalog are intended for off road use only. APR,
LLC does not make any claims of street legal use of these products that
are not intended for use on public roads." Personally, I wouldn't touch
that stuff.
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
If you hack your car/truck and have an accident that injures someone
there are lawyers that would have a field day with you.
If you have an accident that injures someone, it probably won't matter
whether you've modified the car or not.
Post by Doug Hoffman
The manufacturers themselves have enough problems with that.
Are you citing some urban legend or inventing a new one? Which
manufacturer has ever been successfully sued over a fault in the
computer control? I've never heard of one.
It's happened. Ever hear of "unintended acceleration" or "engine
stalling"? There are other examples. I'm in the business and prefer to
not name specific manufacturers here.


Regards,

-Doug
Ed Beroset
2004-09-27 19:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Jan Coombs
I'm unconvinced. I do not hack my desktop pc, but being an open system,
I know that if all else failed I could try to fix it, but likely, more
capable people would do so first, and publish their findings.
Jan,
There are legal issues. The EPA requires an incredible amount of
complexity directly in that *any* device whatsoever on the vehicle that
could possibly affect emissions must be monitored by the cpu.
The EPA has no jurisdiction in the UK.
Of course. But Europe is closely watching the US EPA and the trend
appears to be they will follow with very similar regulations, if they
haven't already. Euro III regs are here with EURO IV regs to closely
follow.
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
Any
suspected "faults" must light the "check engine" indicator. Also, just
meeting the extremely low emissions standards require sophisticated
computer control of the engine management system.
People responding to this seem to be unaware that there is a whole
industry devoted to just this sort of "hacking." Engine tuning by
"chipping" the car (i.e. replacing the firmware in the engine control
unit) is pretty common, especially for performance cars. As one
example, see http://www.goapr.com/Porsche/products/ecu_upgrade_996tt.html
for a company which offers not only a replacement chip but a whole
aftermarket replacement ECU for the Porsche twin-turbo 996.
Sure, you can do that. You can even remove your catalytic converter, as
a private citizen (at least in the US). A business would be liable for
a $10,000 fine for each vehicle it tampered with. But if your state or
region implements a "smog check" program where your vehicle must pass
inspection every year or two in order to get re-registered, you will be
up a creek.
You assume, incorrectly, that a chipped car won't pass a smog check.
In fact, if you read the disclaimer more carefully, you'll see that the
manufacturer is simply saying that they don't guarantee that it will
pass, but this is as likely as not because they are unwilling to take on
the burden of formal testing and documentation to EPA specifications
than that the engines actually pollute more.
Post by Doug Hoffman
Personally, I wouldn't touch a thing on my car.
That's your choice, but not everybody makes that choice. No sooner did
Henry Ford start cranking out Model T's than other people started making
aftermarket modifications. Then as now, some modifications (e.g.
replacement heads) are an improvement over the stock factory versions
for some purposes. Importantly, such modifications don't necessarily
mean a compromise in either personal or environmental safety. Remember
-- in the early 60's, seat belts were an aftermarket add-on that
manufacturers fought because they were "too expensive." I have added on
seatbelts and shoulder harnesses to cars that were not originally so
equipped. You seem like a reasonable person, so I'm sure you wouldn't
argue against those improvements just because I'm not an automotive
engineer.
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
If you hack your car/truck and have an accident that injures someone
there are lawyers that would have a field day with you.
If you have an accident that injures someone, it probably won't matter
whether you've modified the car or not.
Post by Doug Hoffman
The manufacturers themselves have enough problems with that.
Are you citing some urban legend or inventing a new one? Which
manufacturer has ever been successfully sued over a fault in the
computer control? I've never heard of one.
It's happened. Ever hear of "unintended acceleration" or "engine
stalling"? There are other examples. I'm in the business and prefer to
not name specific manufacturers here.
I'll name some for you, then. In the case of Huber v. Ford, a jury
awarded $1.6M to the family of a 14-year-old girl who was killed in a
traffic accident attributed to poor design of the cruise control.
However, if you look into the details, you'll see that the fault was in
the actuator cable and NOT in the firmware. See
http://www.blueovalnews.com/2003/legal/heiskell_011203.htm

In the case of the 1989 and 1990 GM recalls for similar problems it was
again due to cable problems and not due to firmware. See
http://www.autosafety.org/autodefects/GM-E-Car.htm

There are others, of course, but I have never heard of one that had been
traced to engine control firmware. Have you?

I conclude from this that an objective review would indicate that
automotive engineers working on embedded on-board systems are just like
most everybody else: neither incompetent nor infallible. As with the
mechanical, pneumatic, and hydraulic systems of the engine, there's no
reason that a technically inclined owner exercising reasonable care
can't probe into the electronics, too.

Ed
Jerry Avins
2004-09-27 20:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Ed Beroset wrote:

...
Post by Ed Beroset
There are others, of course, but I have never heard of one that had been
traced to engine control firmware. Have you?
I conclude from this that an objective review would indicate that
automotive engineers working on embedded on-board systems are just like
most everybody else: neither incompetent nor infallible. As with the
mechanical, pneumatic, and hydraulic systems of the engine, there's no
reason that a technically inclined owner exercising reasonable care
can't probe into the electronics, too.
Ed
On the whole, I agree. I forget the year, but it was one of the last
Chrysler K-car station wagons. The driver's manual had starting
instructions that advised against pumping the gas pedal, but didn't warn
against cranking the engine with the pedal depressed. (I has gotten into
the habit with carburetor cars of pushing the pedal down let the
automatic choke close.) I bought the car in July and had no trouble
until the weather got cool. Then, generally about 20 to 25 miles from
home, the car would get sluggish, increasingly so if I didn't stop.
Several times, I pulled over to see if there was trouble I could find,
but, finding nothing amiss under the hood, moved on and found that the
problem had been cured.

I soon learned that simply stopping and restarting cured the problem; it
wasn't necessary to wait at all. It was a short step from there to
turning off the ignition while moving (clutch down) turning the key back
on, and letting the clutch up. At that point it was obvious that I was
merely resetting the computer, but I knew no more. The car would stall
if I tried to let it idle, so I couldn't investigate alone. It acted up
once when driving with my son, and I continued without resetting until I
had to stay in first gear and couldn't go over 5 miles an hour. Then I
pulled over - the road was dark, and kept the engine running while my
son looked under the hood. Something was glowing with heat. A flashlight
showed it to be the catalytic converter. Evidently, a software bug was
providing an excessively rich mixture. The problem didn't happen at
random. Whenever I started the car with the accelerator depressed and
the outside temperature in the right range, it would choke up after
about 15 miles of driving; otherwise, not.

I reported our findings to the dealer. He issued a bulletin that solved
the same mystery for many other owners. I'm actually pretty adept at
using a manual choke. I don't mind them at all.

Jerry
--
... they proceeded on the sound principle that the magnitude of a lie
always contains a certain factor of credibility, ... and that therefor
... they more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a little one ...
A. H.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-28 00:20:44 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Ed Beroset
People responding to this seem to be unaware that there is a whole
industry devoted to just this sort of "hacking." Engine tuning by
"chipping" the car (i.e. replacing the firmware in the engine control
unit) is pretty common, especially for performance cars. As one
example, see http://www.goapr.com/Porsche/products/ecu_upgrade_996tt.html
for a company which offers not only a replacement chip but a whole
aftermarket replacement ECU for the Porsche twin-turbo 996.
Sure, you can do that. You can even remove your catalytic converter, as
a private citizen (at least in the US). A business would be liable for
a $10,000 fine for each vehicle it tampered with. But if your state or
region implements a "smog check" program where your vehicle must pass
inspection every year or two in order to get re-registered, you will be
up a creek.
You assume, incorrectly, that a chipped car won't pass a smog check.
That's my assumption, except it is probably correct. Read on.
Post by Ed Beroset
In fact, if you read the disclaimer more carefully, you'll see that the
manufacturer is simply saying that they don't guarantee that it will
pass, but this is as likely as not because they are unwilling to take on
the burden of formal testing and documentation to EPA specifications
than that the engines actually pollute more.
You have experience calibrating today's spark ignition engines for high
performance and low emissions? It doesn't sound like it.

You think this aftermarket chip tuner can out-do the Porsche engineers
by simultaneously improving performance of the Porsche product while
still meeting the (stringent) emissions standards? Don't you think if
that were the case Porsche would simply buy the chips and install them
in all their production cars (and fire their engineers)? Sorry, your
logic fails.

Regards,

-Doug


p.s. There's usually more to a smog check than just measuring the
tailpipe emissions. The onboard diagnostics are usually queried at the
check station and there had better not be any faults or other strange
readings. Since the OBD fault algorithms are closely tied to the
calibration of the engine, these "tuner" chips had better have taken all
of that into account as well as keeping the emissions squeaky clean. My
money is on the Porsche engineers, not the "chippers" or any individual
hackers.

Let's get back to Forth, shall we?
Ed Beroset
2004-09-28 01:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoffman
In article
Post by Ed Beroset
You assume, incorrectly, that a chipped car won't pass a smog check.
That's my assumption, except it is probably correct. Read on.
Untested assumptions are called "theory." Theories which are
controverted by empirical evidence are typically discarded as incorrect.
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Ed Beroset
In fact, if you read the disclaimer more carefully, you'll see that the
manufacturer is simply saying that they don't guarantee that it will
pass, but this is as likely as not because they are unwilling to take on
the burden of formal testing and documentation to EPA specifications
than that the engines actually pollute more.
You have experience calibrating today's spark ignition engines for high
performance and low emissions? It doesn't sound like it.
I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. All I can tell you is that my
Porsche passes smog tests every time and it is decidedly not stock. I
drive it daily.
Post by Doug Hoffman
You think this aftermarket chip tuner can out-do the Porsche engineers
by simultaneously improving performance of the Porsche product while
still meeting the (stringent) emissions standards? Don't you think if
that were the case Porsche would simply buy the chips and install them
in all their production cars (and fire their engineers)? Sorry, your
logic fails.
Let's look at the converse: your logic would seem to assert that is
impossible to improve at all on what the Porsche engineers produce. I
have a high regard for that company's engineers, but I think you go
beyond the limits of credulity here.
Post by Doug Hoffman
p.s. There's usually more to a smog check than just measuring the
tailpipe emissions. The onboard diagnostics are usually queried at the
check station and there had better not be any faults or other strange
readings. Since the OBD fault algorithms are closely tied to the
calibration of the engine, these "tuner" chips had better have taken all
of that into account as well as keeping the emissions squeaky clean.
Yes, that's correct. FYI, that is exactly what competent tuners do.
Post by Doug Hoffman
My money is on the Porsche engineers, not the "chippers" or any individual
hackers.
It's funny you would put it quite this way. Perhaps you are unaware
that Dr. Ferdinand Porsche (who founded the company) was not classically
trained and only received an honorary degree *after* achieving success.
No doubt he would fit your definition of "individual hacker" and was
probably similarly "encouraged" by the automotive engineers of his day.
Fortunately, he ignored the advice of the professionals and went ahead
anyway.
Post by Doug Hoffman
Let's get back to Forth, shall we?
We're already there!

Ed
a***@littlepinkcloud.invalid
2004-09-28 09:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
In article
Post by Ed Beroset
You assume, incorrectly, that a chipped car won't pass a smog check.
That's my assumption, except it is probably correct. Read on.
Untested assumptions are called "theory."
No, they're hypotheses. A theory is "an organized system of accepted
knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a
specific set of phenomena" i.e., the theory of gravitation.

Andrew.
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-28 22:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Beroset
I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. All I can tell you is that my
Porsche passes smog tests every time and it is decidedly not stock. I
drive it daily.
Are you saying that you have one of these "performance" chips in your
Porsche? I'll assume you are because that has been the focus of this
thread. Let's assume that you are indeed somehow getting through the
smog check stations (how long you'll be able to keep doing that is
anybody's guess).

What will you tell the person who ultimately buys your car? Will you
tell them that you have installed a modified chip that delivers
significantly more horsepower and torque than the driveline (crankshaft,
pistons, transaxle, etc.) was intended to receive? It is not difficult
to get more horsepower, especially with a turbo (just increase the
boost), without regard for overall durability and no need to certify the
emissions with the EPA (the EPA's test is far more stringent than that
of the smog check station). And don't give any more fairy tales about
how these chippers or hackers can do a better job than the Porsche
engineers. We are no longer in the era of when a shadetree mechanic can
"tune" his vehicle's engine. At *all*, and certainly not better than
the factory.

So what will you tell the prospective buyer of your car?

I repeat, personally I wouldn't touch any of that stuff.
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
You think this aftermarket chip tuner can out-do the Porsche engineers
by simultaneously improving performance of the Porsche product while
still meeting the (stringent) emissions standards? Don't you think if
that were the case Porsche would simply buy the chips and install them
in all their production cars (and fire their engineers)? Sorry, your
logic fails.
Let's look at the converse: your logic would seem to assert that is
impossible to improve at all on what the Porsche engineers produce. I
have a high regard for that company's engineers, but I think you go
beyond the limits of credulity here.
Get real.
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
My money is on the Porsche engineers, not the "chippers" or any individual
hacker.
It's funny you would put it quite this way. Perhaps you are unaware
that Dr. Ferdinand Porsche (who founded the company) was not classically
trained and only received an honorary degree *after* achieving success.
No doubt he would fit your definition of "individual hacker" and was
probably similarly "encouraged" by the automotive engineers of his day.
Fortunately, he ignored the advice of the professionals and went ahead
anyway.
Oh yeah, right. We've gone from " almost anyone can hack their car's
engine controller and out-do the factory engineers" to "everyone's a
potential Dr. Porsche." Earth to Ed.
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
Let's get back to Forth, shall we?
We're already there!
I don't think so.

Regards,

-Doug
Brad Eckert
2004-09-29 22:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Ed Beroset
I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. All I can tell you is that my
Porsche passes smog tests every time and it is decidedly not stock. I
drive it daily.
What will you tell the person who ultimately buys your car? Will you
tell them that you have installed a modified chip that delivers
significantly more horsepower and torque than the driveline (crankshaft,
pistons, transaxle, etc.) was intended to receive? It is not difficult
to get more horsepower, especially with a turbo (just increase the
boost), without regard for overall durability and no need to certify the
emissions with the EPA (the EPA's test is far more stringent than that
of the smog check station). And don't give any more fairy tales about
how these chippers or hackers can do a better job than the Porsche
engineers. We are no longer in the era of when a shadetree mechanic can
"tune" his vehicle's engine. At *all*, and certainly not better than
the factory.
Maybe Ed plans to drive his car into the ground (like what I do), or
sell it to another motorhead. I think his point is that he really
likes hacking his car and he's not technically breaking any rules. If
he does break something, well, it's his car.

Cars are designed for the average consumer, not the performance freak.
Just try buying a new car with a standard transmission or a diesel
engine (in the US) these days. It's slim pickin's. While the Porche
engineers have their own ideas on how a car should be built or tuned,
they can't necessarily do what they think is best. They must do what
management thinks is best for business.

Which brings us back around to Forth. The machines we buy can be
hacked with Forth. The good thing about hacking computers is that they
probably won't be broken in the effort. Personally, I would like to
see the new GameBoy Advanced (the kind with the clamshell case) used
as a Forth platform. The other day I had to boot up my laptop to copy
a single 1600 byte file onto a thumb drive. The whole process took
probably 160 seconds, for an average transfer rate of 10 bytes/second.
A wee bit slower than USB2's advertised rate of 480Mbit/sec.

Brad
Ed Beroset
2004-09-29 22:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Eckert
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Ed Beroset
I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. All I can tell you is that my
Porsche passes smog tests every time and it is decidedly not stock. I
drive it daily.
What will you tell the person who ultimately buys your car? Will you
tell them that you have installed a modified chip that delivers
significantly more horsepower and torque than the driveline (crankshaft,
pistons, transaxle, etc.) was intended to receive? It is not difficult
to get more horsepower, especially with a turbo (just increase the
boost), without regard for overall durability and no need to certify the
emissions with the EPA (the EPA's test is far more stringent than that
of the smog check station). And don't give any more fairy tales about
how these chippers or hackers can do a better job than the Porsche
engineers. We are no longer in the era of when a shadetree mechanic can
"tune" his vehicle's engine. At *all*, and certainly not better than
the factory.
Maybe Ed plans to drive his car into the ground (like what I do), or
sell it to another motorhead. I think his point is that he really
likes hacking his car and he's not technically breaking any rules. If
he does break something, well, it's his car.
I typically drive 'em til they drop, as I plan to do with this one.
Post by Brad Eckert
Cars are designed for the average consumer, not the performance freak.
Just try buying a new car with a standard transmission or a diesel
engine (in the US) these days. It's slim pickin's. While the Porche
engineers have their own ideas on how a car should be built or tuned,
they can't necessarily do what they think is best. They must do what
management thinks is best for business.
Sure. Another not-so-minor point I attempted to make earlier is that
even the fine engineers at Porsche are not infallible, and they learn
things from year to year. So we see changes in the engine from year to
year, a bearing here, reinforcements on the head covers there, etc. as
they learn about the engine and improve things for peformance,
reliability, or other considerations. Mine's just a 1982 911 (not
turbo) but I really enjoy it. In addition to driving it, I like working
on it.
Post by Brad Eckert
Which brings us back around to Forth. The machines we buy can be
hacked with Forth. The good thing about hacking computers is that they
probably won't be broken in the effort. Personally, I would like to
see the new GameBoy Advanced (the kind with the clamshell case) used
as a Forth platform.
Funny you should mention this -- I wandered into a local computer and
video game store and they had used Gameboy Color devices for sale at
US$20 each. Just tonight I looked through Google groups archives of
clax and couldn't find a definitive answer to the question "which Forth
runs on the Gameboy color?" I have an application in mind that uses the
infrared port.
Post by Brad Eckert
The other day I had to boot up my laptop to copy
a single 1600 byte file onto a thumb drive. The whole process took
probably 160 seconds, for an average transfer rate of 10 bytes/second.
A wee bit slower than USB2's advertised rate of 480Mbit/sec.
You might be interested in the Sharp Zaurus. It's a PDA nominally, but
it runs Linux and so of course I have a version of gforth on it. It's
not quite instant-on, but it only takes a few seconds to awaken out of
standby.

Ed
Jeff Fox
2004-09-30 03:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Brad Eckert
probably won't be broken in the effort. Personally, I would like to
see the new GameBoy Advanced (the kind with the clamshell case) used
as a Forth platform.
Funny you should mention this -- I wandered into a local computer and
video game store and they had used Gameboy Color devices for sale at
US$20 each. Just tonight I looked through Google groups archives of
clax and couldn't find a definitive answer to the question "which Forth
runs on the Gameboy color?" I have an application in mind that uses the
infrared port.
I think Dr. Ting demonstrated a color gameboy Forth at a SVFIG
meeting some time ago.

Best Wishes
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-30 10:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Beroset
Mine's just a 1982 911
The emissions-related onboard diagnostics laws didn't even *begin* to
take effect until the 1996 model year (either you are clueless to this
fact or you conveniently omitted it), which largely explains how you are
able to skate by the smog check for now. Any computer codes from the
controller on your car are simply there to help the mechanic fix
problems.

Regards,

-Doug
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-30 10:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Eckert
Maybe Ed plans to drive his car into the ground (like what I do), or
sell it to another motorhead.
For the sake of the unsuspecting used car buyer, let's hope so.
Post by Brad Eckert
I think his point is that he really
likes hacking his car and he's not technically breaking any rules.
Not breaking rules. That's debatable. His car is polluting more than
my car and everyone else who doesn't tamper. Legally he seems to be
getting by. Morally, what gives him the right to pollute?

Look, if someone wants to hack their Gameboy or even their car radio, I
think that's just great. But hacking your vehicle's engine controller
is a whole nuther matter with potentially serious pitfalls. I don't
think Ed understands that. Perhaps most outside the business don't.
Hence my posts to keep people informed of the situation with cars today.
Post by Brad Eckert
Cars are designed for the average consumer, not the performance freak.
Viper? Vette? Turbo Porsche? Mustang? 300 Hemi? Maybe you mean *most*
cars.
Post by Brad Eckert
Just try buying a new car with a standard transmission or a diesel
engine (in the US) these days. It's slim pickin's.
True. Most people can't even drive a stick. I had to teach both my
sons how to drive a manual because they were not taught in driver's ed.
All I drive are manuals. But 90% of all new cars sold today are
automatics. They build what people buy. The fact is today most people
prefer automatics. You can't blame the manufacturers for building what
people want to buy. As for diesels, GM pretty much soured the public
on them back in the 1980's. There may be a resurgence. Look for a
diesel Jeep Liberty late this year.
Post by Brad Eckert
While the Porche
engineers have their own ideas on how a car should be built or tuned,
they can't necessarily do what they think is best. They must do what
management thinks is best for business.
And not giving the customer all of the horsepower the engine is safely
capable of delivering is what Porsche management thinks is best for
selling their cars? Please.
Post by Brad Eckert
Which brings us back around to Forth.
It does? I don't see how but I'm happy to go back there. Let's stick
with hacking Gameboys or whatever. But if I see misinformation or bad
information about autos, I feel obligated speak up and will continue to
do so.

Regards,

-Doug
Ed Beroset
2004-09-30 11:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Brad Eckert
Maybe Ed plans to drive his car into the ground (like what I do), or
sell it to another motorhead.
For the sake of the unsuspecting used car buyer, let's hope so.
Post by Brad Eckert
I think his point is that he really
likes hacking his car and he's not technically breaking any rules.
Not breaking rules. That's debatable. His car is polluting more than
my car and everyone else who doesn't tamper.
You make a lot uninformed, self-righteous and incorrect assumptions
about me and about my car. Why don't we stick to talking about what we
actually know instead?
Post by Doug Hoffman
Look, if someone wants to hack their Gameboy or even their car radio, I
think that's just great. But hacking your vehicle's engine controller
is a whole nuther matter with potentially serious pitfalls. I don't
think Ed understands that. Perhaps most outside the business don't.
Hence my posts to keep people informed of the situation with cars today.
Informed? "Don't touch anything" isn't much in the way of information,
Doug. How about something useful that actually relates to Forth? For
example, I've been considering combining basic information (speed, RPMs,
acceleration and GPS time and position data) to create a Forth-driven
data logging device that could easily be plugged into my car. How would
you recommend that I obtain speed, engine RPM and acceleration data?
I'd be interested in both lateral and forward acceleration and the GPS
data isn't sufficiently fine-grained to give me what I want.

Ed
Benjamin Ketcham
2004-11-07 04:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Beroset
How about something useful that actually relates to Forth? For
example, I've been considering combining basic information (speed, RPMs,
acceleration and GPS time and position data) to create a Forth-driven
data logging device that could easily be plugged into my car. How would
you recommend that I obtain speed, engine RPM and acceleration data?
I'd be interested in both lateral and forward acceleration and the GPS
data isn't sufficiently fine-grained to give me what I want.
Yeah, I've wanted to do this for a while...
They make monolithic chip accelerometers now: I think Burr Brown,
Analog Devices (or are they the same now?), maybe even National Semi,
have them.

RPM and speed can be got from the dash, one way or another.
If it's a newer car, might already be in electronic form.
Even on my old 1980s Subaru, with electronic tach but mechanical (cable)
speedometer, there was already a reed switch inside the speedometer
which closed every time a point on the rotating portion went by:
presumably, for cruise control (which I didn't have).

They didn't have the on-chip accelerometers back then, so I was
using a damped weight swinging from a pot to measure lateral acceleration.
(I wanted a kind of heads-up display to judge how close to skidding I
was, and also to show me the perfect-shift points... never finished the
project, still want to, but with (obviously) a different car and different
techniques now...)

--Benjamin
Ed Beroset
2004-11-07 19:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin Ketcham
Post by Ed Beroset
How about something useful that actually relates to Forth? For
example, I've been considering combining basic information (speed, RPMs,
acceleration and GPS time and position data) to create a Forth-driven
data logging device that could easily be plugged into my car. How would
you recommend that I obtain speed, engine RPM and acceleration data?
I'd be interested in both lateral and forward acceleration and the GPS
data isn't sufficiently fine-grained to give me what I want.
Yeah, I've wanted to do this for a while...
They make monolithic chip accelerometers now: I think Burr Brown,
Analog Devices (or are they the same now?), maybe even National Semi,
have them.
Analog Devices has a MEMS part that has dual axis accelerometer. I'm
probably going to go with that.
Post by Benjamin Ketcham
RPM and speed can be got from the dash, one way or another.
Actually, I was thinking that since a = dv/dt, I could integrate the
accelerometer output to derive true velocity (both forward and lateral!)
Post by Benjamin Ketcham
If it's a newer car, might already be in electronic form.
Even on my old 1980s Subaru, with electronic tach but mechanical (cable)
speedometer, there was already a reed switch inside the speedometer
presumably, for cruise control (which I didn't have).
Mine's an '82. I had a cruise control which I removed, so I might be
able to find the signals there. Another possibility to make it
completely non-intrusive would be to use an inductive pickup on one of
the plug wires.
Post by Benjamin Ketcham
They didn't have the on-chip accelerometers back then, so I was
using a damped weight swinging from a pot to measure lateral acceleration.
I considered that, and I even had a joystick (two axis pots) but the
MEMS part is much cooler.
Post by Benjamin Ketcham
was, and also to show me the perfect-shift points... never finished the
project, still want to, but with (obviously) a different car and different
techniques now...)
Maybe we can share notes?

Ed

Bernd Paysan
2004-09-30 16:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Eckert
Cars are designed for the average consumer, not the performance freak.
Just try buying a new car with a standard transmission or a diesel
engine (in the US) these days. It's slim pickin's. While the Porche
engineers have their own ideas on how a car should be built or tuned,
they can't necessarily do what they think is best. They must do what
management thinks is best for business.
For some background information, I've found a link where a chip-tuner
explains things (the car in question is a Citroen HDI Turbo-Diesel, but
the text is the same for other tuned engines):

http://www.hs-elektronik.com/datenblatt-e/citroen-xantia20hdi-110ps.html

Summary: The main thing the manufacturers want to hide is the deviation
of the engine power at assembly. They detune the engines to a level so
that they all have the same performance. Aspirated engines have less
tuning effects than turbo-charged engines, and that's easy to explain:
You have two effects changing the output power, and the turbo charger
seems to be a less predictable component (also, the achievable charge
pressure depends on air temperature). Also, aging is included in the
calculation. So when you chip-tune your engine, you get back the
original performance, and the actual tuning effect might be small
(though with a small likelyhood, and performance may suffer at some
points in the car's lifetime, and be lower in summer). You also may
reduce the lifetime of the car, but since most cars (tuned and untuned)
are not operated at full power most the time, the effect is very small.

An alternative strategy for the car manufacturer would be to do the same
as Intel and AMD do in the chip business: Sell the same engine for a
different price depending on the achieved HP. For normal cars as the
Citroen above, this might not be very useful, because noone would buy
the expensive high-power ones, and for Porsches, I could imagine that
the lower-power ones wouldn't sell well, either. So it's probably ideal
to leave that option to third parties.

Also, law requires that the performance of a motor is given to 10%
accuracy. If aging and environmental influnces (like air pressure and
heat) cause a higher deviation than that, you have to detune the engine
so that the law is met. A chip-tuner can proably waive that warranty,
as it's an individual modification.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
Doug Hoffman
2004-10-01 10:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernd Paysan
Post by Brad Eckert
Cars are designed for the average consumer, not the performance freak.
Just try buying a new car with a standard transmission or a diesel
engine (in the US) these days. It's slim pickin's. While the Porche
engineers have their own ideas on how a car should be built or tuned,
they can't necessarily do what they think is best. They must do what
management thinks is best for business.
For some background information, I've found a link where a chip-tuner
explains things (the car in question is a Citroen HDI Turbo-Diesel, but
http://www.hs-elektronik.com/datenblatt-e/citroen-xantia20hdi-110ps.html
Summary: The main thing the manufacturers want to hide is the deviation
of the engine power at assembly. They detune the engines to a level so
that they all have the same performance. Aspirated engines have less
You have two effects changing the output power, and the turbo charger
seems to be a less predictable component (also, the achievable charge
pressure depends on air temperature). Also, aging is included in the
calculation. So when you chip-tune your engine, you get back the
original performance, and the actual tuning effect might be small
(though with a small likelyhood, and performance may suffer at some
points in the car's lifetime, and be lower in summer). You also may
reduce the lifetime of the car, but since most cars (tuned and untuned)
are not operated at full power most the time, the effect is very small.
Bernd, I would suggest that you read the technical literature, not the
sales literature.
Post by Bernd Paysan
Also, law requires that the performance of a motor is given to 10%
accuracy. If aging and environmental influnces (like air pressure and
heat) cause a higher deviation than that, you have to detune the engine
so that the law is met.
It's a strange law if it leads to "detuning". We don't have that
situation in the US.

With today's sophisticated fuel injection and engine management systems
I would think that it would be pretty easy to 1) measure air pressure in
real time (pressure sensor's are typically already there) and adjust as
necessary, and 2) measure or infer temperature(s) in real time and again
adjust as necessary. Far superior to opting to deprive the customer of
power. The auto market is *very* competitive today. The manufacturers
are driven by competition to make the product the best it can be. I can
tell you that "giving away" power would not be taken lightly by a
manufacturer, if it is done at all.

Regards,

-Doug
Benjamin Ketcham
2004-11-07 04:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoffman
In article
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Ed Beroset
People responding to this seem to be unaware that there is a whole
industry devoted to just this sort of "hacking." Engine tuning by
"chipping" the car (i.e. replacing the firmware in the engine control
unit) is pretty common, especially for performance cars. As one
example, see http://www.goapr.com/Porsche/products/ecu_upgrade_996tt.html
for a company which offers not only a replacement chip but a whole
aftermarket replacement ECU for the Porsche twin-turbo 996.
Sure, you can do that. You can even remove your catalytic converter, as
a private citizen (at least in the US). A business would be liable for
a $10,000 fine for each vehicle it tampered with. But if your state or
region implements a "smog check" program where your vehicle must pass
inspection every year or two in order to get re-registered, you will be
up a creek.
You assume, incorrectly, that a chipped car won't pass a smog check.
That's my assumption, except it is probably correct. Read on.
No, it's incorrect. "Read on."

Actually, when I originally posted on this thread, I was more interested
in accessing less-critical aspects of the car's functionality. E.g., a
lot of cars turn the headlights on by themselves nowadays: I hate that!
If the car was running Linux, or was otherwise open-source-accessible,
maybe I could fix that kind of thing. Maybe I'd like to put a PWM dimmer
on the headlights while I was at it (go ahead, whine about the legality
of altering the lighting equipment: I still want to). And all that
beeping and chiming, when seatbelts are not fastened or whatever? History.
I hate electronic things that make noise, just about always.

But WRT engine mods, and (in the case of automatic transmissions)
transmission mods, etc.: who says one has to choose, either stock *or*
modified? Maybe one does now, when modifications mean an entirely
new chip (or new EPROM). But if the car was properly "hackable", it
would seem obvious to preserve the "factory" behaviour as one possible
setting. Sure, if I was afraid I was going to *lose* the factory
settings if I touched anything, then maybe I wouldn't do it. But given
the factory settings as an always-available fallback, I'd be much more
inclined to try tweaking it a little, see if I could get more power, etc.;
and of course, on "emissions day", I'd just flip the switch back to
"factory". Of course, this highlights one reason why there is probably
significant government (if not industry) resistance to making the car
hackable. They don't want you to do that, any more than they want you
to have movable baffles in the exhaust pipe of your Harley, that can
switch between "performance" and "legal" modes.

So you can argue about why the government, or society, shouldn't allow
me to hack on my car; but your argument that my acknowledged inexperience
in performance tuning is a reason not to do it, doesn't hold water to me.

(Besides, if a given brand of car did have an explicitly open/hackable
architecture, you can be sure newsgroups and websites would pop up in
abundance, trading info on how to do mods. I guess they already exist,
as others have noted, but so far it's mostly against the clear will of
the manufacturers. I want to be able to download new code via an IR
port in the dash!)
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Ed Beroset
In fact, if you read the disclaimer more carefully, you'll see that the
manufacturer is simply saying that they don't guarantee that it will
pass, but this is as likely as not because they are unwilling to take on
the burden of formal testing and documentation to EPA specifications
than that the engines actually pollute more.
You have experience calibrating today's spark ignition engines for high
performance and low emissions? It doesn't sound like it.
You think this aftermarket chip tuner can out-do the Porsche engineers
by simultaneously improving performance of the Porsche product while
still meeting the (stringent) emissions standards? Don't you think if
that were the case Porsche would simply buy the chips and install them
in all their production cars (and fire their engineers)? Sorry, your
logic fails.
Stock "anything" (cars, whatever) are usually designed to satisfy a
complicated morass of compromises and conflicting requirements.
Maybe the Porsche guys had to back off from the max performance a
little in order to hit the emission standards. Maybe they make all
the cars able to meet California standards, or some (hypothetical)
European standards, which might be more stringent than other parts
of the USA. Maybe they had a higher-performance mode, but it made
the idle a little rough, and the suits said no way, we can't sell
a car for 100,000$ with a rough idle, it has more than enough
performance anyway, back it off a little. Who knows? Not you,
not me. One thing's for sure, I *don't* trust that no better results
are possible for a given individual, and I *do* want the power to play
around. Your naysaying doesn't scare me a bit. :)
Post by Doug Hoffman
Regards,
-Doug
p.s. There's usually more to a smog check than just measuring the
tailpipe emissions. The onboard diagnostics are usually queried at the
check station and there had better not be any faults or other strange
readings. Since the OBD fault algorithms are closely tied to the
calibration of the engine, these "tuner" chips had better have taken all
of that into account as well as keeping the emissions squeaky clean. My
money is on the Porsche engineers, not the "chippers" or any individual
hackers.
I betcha the "individual hackers" could figure out exactly how to make
the system still pass all the checks and behave in all the right ways.
Just look at the feats of reverse engineering that have been accomplished
by various "individual hackers", writing open-source drivers for various
obscure hardware in the computing arena (often uncovering and fixing bugs
and/or attaining better performance than the proprietary code written
by the "experts"). I'm surprised someone in a Forth group would exhibit
such apparent disdain for hackers. It's not wise to underestimate them.
(BTW, just a guess, but I betcha a number of the Porsche engineers own
motorcycles or oddball/vintage sports cars, which they tinker with in
their spare time, and they'd probably scoff at the suggestion that they
should just trust the manufacturers and not change anything.)

--Benjamin
Paul E. Bennett
2004-11-07 18:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Benjamin Ketcham wrote:

[%X]
Post by Benjamin Ketcham
But WRT engine mods, and (in the case of automatic transmissions)
transmission mods, etc.: who says one has to choose, either stock *or*
modified? Maybe one does now, when modifications mean an entirely
new chip (or new EPROM). But if the car was properly "hackable", it
would seem obvious to preserve the "factory" behaviour as one possible
setting. Sure, if I was afraid I was going to *lose* the factory
settings if I touched anything, then maybe I wouldn't do it. But given
the factory settings as an always-available fallback, I'd be much more
inclined to try tweaking it a little, see if I could get more power, etc.;
and of course, on "emissions day", I'd just flip the switch back to
"factory". Of course, this highlights one reason why there is probably
significant government (if not industry) resistance to making the car
hackable. They don't want you to do that, any more than they want you
to have movable baffles in the exhaust pipe of your Harley, that can
switch between "performance" and "legal" modes.
You would probably like one of the latest cars out of the Mercedes stables
then. That has selectable options (on the dash) that allows the driver to
select Grand Tourer, Sport or Turbo Sport modes (or something like that as
I wasn't paying that much attention at the time). I suppose that some other
manufacturers will follow suit. Then again, I think they also make noises
so maybe you won't like it.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://***@a...>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE......
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details.
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************
Howerd Oakford
2004-10-03 20:48:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jan & Ed,

Some months ago I spent a day investigating an OBD-II project - I even
bought one of MPE's ARM Forth Stamp boards as a prototype.
Like Andy Whittaker in your link, I ruled out Windows, as some of the
Baudrates were "unusual" and timings were well below anything Windoze could
resolve - hence the ARM board as an interface. This worked very well. Of
course colorForth could have done it, but I didn't think the customer would
like to learn a new language, editor and keyboard ; )
From just a few hours work I concluded that the standard has been "adapted"
by several motor manufacturers to make their systems slightly incompatible
with everyone elses'.
My potential customer had already made a start in VB using SQL ( IIRC ) with
an enormous database of special configurations.
We concluded that this would be a major job in any langauage. Jolly japes
indeed...

Regards

Howerd
Post by Ed Beroset
Post by Doug Hoffman
Post by Jan Coombs
I'm unconvinced. I do not hack my desktop pc, but being an open system,
I know that if all else failed I could try to fix it, but likely, more
capable people would do so first, and publish their findings.
Jan,
There are legal issues. The EPA requires an incredible amount of
complexity directly in that *any* device whatsoever on the vehicle that
could possibly affect emissions must be monitored by the cpu.
The EPA has no jurisdiction in the UK.
Post by Doug Hoffman
Any
suspected "faults" must light the "check engine" indicator. Also, just
meeting the extremely low emissions standards require sophisticated
computer control of the engine management system.
People responding to this seem to be unaware that there is a whole
industry devoted to just this sort of "hacking." Engine tuning by
"chipping" the car (i.e. replacing the firmware in the engine control
unit) is pretty common, especially for performance cars. As one
example, see http://www.goapr.com/Porsche/products/ecu_upgrade_996tt.html
for a company which offers not only a replacement chip but a whole
aftermarket replacement ECU for the Porsche twin-turbo 996.
Post by Doug Hoffman
If you hack your car/truck and have an accident that injures someone
there are lawyers that would have a field day with you.
If you have an accident that injures someone, it probably won't matter
whether you've modified the car or not.
Post by Doug Hoffman
The manufacturers themselves have enough problems with that.
Are you citing some urban legend or inventing a new one? Which
manufacturer has ever been successfully sued over a fault in the
computer control? I've never heard of one.
To the OP: sensible caution is reasonable, but like you, I don't
consider any portion of my car off limits for investigation. If yours
is a newer car, you'll probably have an OBD-II (sometimes called OBDC --
OnBoard Diagnostics Computer) connector on it for diagnostics. You can
get a wealth of information via this standardized connector and that
would be an excellent application for Forth. This web site
http://www.andywhittaker.com/ecu/obdii_software.htm lists the trials
and tribulations of somebody trying to get Windows to do this protocol
-- it would be much simple with Forth, IMHO. Google for OBD-II and
you'll find much much more.
Ed
Ed
Astrobe
2004-09-21 16:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Many years ago my company put me through an Effective Personal Productivity
class. One of the most valuable lessons from it was realizing that
Effectiveness triumphs Efficiency. A company interested in making money
wants the solution in 3 months, not 3 years. Sure it's not going to be as
efficient, but if it can do the job, then it has met the need.
I agree that *in the short term* Effectiveness triumphs Efficiency.
But that does not mean Effectiveness versus Efficiency.
To always give the priority to effectiveness leads to inefficiency,
which finally lead to Ineffectiveness. That's the problem with the
bloatware on our Desktops: the software industry wants to make money
at any cost and won't bother about efficiency unless a significant
number of their customers ask for it.
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Is Forth can do it better, then let's see it do better. Redesign the
hardware from the ground up. Write an OS. Write software for it.
Done.
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Market it, sell it,
That's the true problem. You can't buy anything if there's not the
apple logo or the Wintel logo.
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
If Forth is too good for the masses or non-specialized computers, then it is nothing more than an embedded snob.
;-)
I'm OK with non-specialized computers; I'm not OK with Wintel
specialized computers.

Amicalement,
Astrobe
jmdrake
2004-09-28 18:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Astrobe
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Many years ago my company put me through an Effective Personal Productivity
class. One of the most valuable lessons from it was realizing that
Effectiveness triumphs Efficiency. A company interested in making money
wants the solution in 3 months, not 3 years. Sure it's not going to be as
efficient, but if it can do the job, then it has met the need.
I agree that *in the short term* Effectiveness triumphs Efficiency.
But that does not mean Effectiveness versus Efficiency.
To always give the priority to effectiveness leads to inefficiency,
which finally lead to Ineffectiveness. That's the problem with the
bloatware on our Desktops: the software industry wants to make money
at any cost and won't bother about efficiency unless a significant
number of their customers ask for it.
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Is Forth can do it better, then let's see it do better. Redesign the
hardware from the ground up. Write an OS. Write software for it.
Done.
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Market it, sell it,
That's the true problem. You can't buy anything if there's not the
apple logo or the Wintel logo.
Oh really? Have you never heard of the Palm Pilot? It became an
overnight success in a market that a device with an Apple logo had
just FAILED at. Even today Palm is still holding it's own, despite
the fact that PocketPCs often come with superior hardware for
similairly priced devices. And then there's BlackBerry. It
carved out a decent niche with even simpler hardware/OS than Palm.

The fact is that it's applications that sell machines. Palm is
still successful despite strong competition from Microsoft because
people didn't initially have a "preconceived" notion of what a
handheld application should do. Note that I did not say "killer"
applications. There was nothing spectacular about the initial
suite of programs that came with the first Palm Pilots. There
was nothing spectacular about the first BlackBerry email programs.
They were just solid and did a job that people wanted to do.

Linux is doing well in the server market for much of the same
reasons. It can run solid server applications that people
actually want and it can do it very cheaply. There is a
small number of people who will invest in a platform because
it's "cool". And yeah, it's nice to have a computer system
that's "efficient" but that begs the question "efficient at
doing what?".

This reminds me of a story Jeff Fox related here about how iTV
passed up an opportunity to sell a large order of boxes as
"email" machines. That's a pity. Most people don't have
preconceived notions about email supporing Flash - Java -
JavaScript - Active X ect. (In fact that's increasingly
becoming seen as a liability).

I also recently saw a documentary on PBS about a former black
panther who is living in Tanzania and is running a community
center. In one scene he was asking someone about getting
computers that could be used for "introductory" classes for
children. He said, because of budget reasons, he wanted
some machines that were "really really old". The person he
talked to told him "Well the software you want to run will
require recent machines". This again made me thing about
iTV, but it also made me thing about bloat in general.
For instance there is a free music program that lets users
who don't know music theory compose interesting melodies.
But the software requires a 3D graphics card! And the
graphics being used is really "2D" with a "3D" feel. It
could ALL be pre-rendered. Oh well.
Post by Astrobe
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
If Forth is too good for the masses or non-specialized computers, then it is nothing more than an embedded snob.
;-)
I'm OK with non-specialized computers; I'm not OK with Wintel
specialized computers.
Amicalement,
Astrobe
I'm OK with non-specialized computers. But in the course of
my day I HAVE to work with standard software. I have to
be able to exchange files with people who are using Excel
and Word. I HAVE to be able to interface with database
and statistics programs. At times I HAVE to be able to
access websites that use JavaScript and even Java applets.
One case some joker used a Java applet as a front end
to a web based database. The front end could have easily
been done in straight HTML!

Anyway, I'm not sure why people act like there is only one
(or two) ways to use Forth. There are several decent
"Linux/Windows/Mac" Forths out there. Yeah it's not
the same as a "bare metal" Forth, but it's Forth. But
if Forth hardware/OS ever becomes visibly widespread
it will because someone will have thought of a way for
the Forth system to complement (rather than compete
against) the Linux/Windows/Mac solutions people have
to use on their jobs for real work.

Regards,

John M. Drake
Clark Kent
2004-09-21 23:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Is Forth can do it better, then let's see it do better. Redesign the
hardware from the ground up. Write an OS. Write software for it. Market
it, sell it, support it. If Forth is too good for the masses or
non-specialized computers, then it is nothing more than an embedded snob.
;-)
Ricki
I agree. I for one would like to be able to run forth exclusively.
As it is, a person has to run linux or windows in order to get
anything done. Posting to this group, for example. It would be nice
to be able to turn your computer on, and have it come up immediately
rather than waiting for a bunch of crap to happen. And I'm not crazy
about having to log in to my own computer either.

My dream machine would come with a chip that has a machine forth
instruction set, a large clear video display, a 3d graphics
accelerator, mass storage (either hard drive or some kind of solid
state memory), ethernet card, mouse, keyboard, possibly a modem, and
complete documentation to all interfaces which would be simple and
existensible.

If I ever get the money, and hardware experience, I'm going to design
such a system. And then I'm going to sell it. And people will buy it
because of it's simplicity, speed, low price and openness.

Incidently, that's the way the PC started out. Open. That's why
there are more PC's than Apples.

This stuff about word processors and office applications being too
uncool to write in forth is childish. Office applications are
necessary and important. A person shouldn't have to learn a bunch of
obscure commands in order to get their work done. Nor should they
have to learn how to program. Who's to say that those idiots, the
'users', those sheep, aren't doing something more important with your
software than a mere computer scientist could understand? One day a
person will cure cancer with the aid of some computer program. I
imagine there will be some linux or forth person there that day, and
they will say "That program was too easy to use."
a***@littlepinkcloud.invalid
2004-09-23 12:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Is Forth can do it better, then let's see it do better. Redesign
the hardware from the ground up. Write an OS. Write software for
it. Market it, sell it, support it. If Forth is too good for the
masses or non-specialized computers, then it is nothing more than an
embedded snob. ;-)
Hmph. :-)

AFAIK ninety-odd percent of all the software written is custom code,
for a single customer. A very great deal of it is written in COBOL
and a bunch of special-purpose languages. "Show me a mainstream
program for my desktop PC written in Forth" is a fairly bad way to
judge a language's usefulness.

Andrew.
Doug Hoffman
2004-09-23 04:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Astrobe
Post by m-coughlin
A much more important question, is "Why does somebody have
to ask this question?" Why isn't there a useful program, written
in Forth, that the user is told is written in Forth? Then maybe
we would have people asking "I like using this program written
in Forth. How can I learn to program in Forth myself?"
Maybe because the favorite playground of Forth is embedded systems.
Is it? Darn. Should I find a different programing language? I know
nothing of embedded systems.
Post by Astrobe
Maybe because Desktop computers are not good enough for Forth.
I am hard pressed to imagine a desktop computer much better than what
I'm using that I could afford. I use a Macintosh with OSX. Of course
if the computer would make my coffee and provide an occasional neck
massage I wouldn't mind.
Post by Astrobe
Maybe
Forth is not as well fitted as other languages to manage the awful
complexity of these environments, because they were designed for and
grew in this infamous matrix.
Maybe it depends on the Forth one uses. A Forth designed to work in
harmony with the OS should be a pleasure to use. But I've seen some
Forths that were a royal pain to use on a Desktop because they provided
minimal support for the existing environment.

Regards,

-Doug
clvrmnky
2004-09-29 15:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Astrobe
Post by m-coughlin
A much more important question, is "Why does somebody have
to ask this question?" Why isn't there a useful program, written
in Forth, that the user is told is written in Forth? Then maybe
we would have people asking "I like using this program written
in Forth. How can I learn to program in Forth myself?"
[I my newsserver does not have the original posting that spawned this
thread. Sorry for the confusion.]

Another question to ask is "when have users of software cared what
language an application is written in?" By and large, even useful
applications do not inspire such questions, at least not in recent decades.
Post by Astrobe
Maybe because the favorite playground of Forth is embedded systems.
Maybe because Desktop computers are not good enough for Forth. Maybe
Forth is not as well fitted as other languages to manage the awful
complexity of these environments, because they were designed for and
grew in this infamous matrix.
Forth is traditionally an embedded systems language for many reasons,
but it is a general-purpose programming language. This implies that any
desktop is "good enough" for it's use. Regardless of how complex a
server or desktop system may be, Forth will certainly run on it. It may
even provide you with enough tools to make a nice application that would
be indistinguishable from other applications on that platform.

Whether or not this toolkit it offers is of value to people coding on
big workstations is the real issue. Forth applications are usually
grown by creating words and data structures that describe the solution
to the problem space you are trying to solve. This makes it ideal for
embedded systems where even something as ordinary as an operating system
may not, in fact, be present.

For application developers it is more important that a particular
language hook nicely into the OS, and provide (or understand) a rich set
of frameworks and libraries for I/O and presentation. It would be
boring to create this from scratch, which is why people turn to other
tools. I'm sure that the commercial Forth vendors supply such hooks and
glue into common platform libraries. For better or for worse, desktop
and server applications a generally served best by the tools supported
and provided by the vendors of those platforms (Unix often being an
exception to this general rule. This is partially the reason for the
explosion of Java on Unix platforms, and the enduring love people have
for autoconf.)

It's much harder to expect a small or free Forth to provide the
necessary tools to allow one to make a nice modern GUI or console app on
any modern platform. Unless one can hook into the various Frameworks on
Mac OS X or the Foundation (or their .Net counterparts) classes on
Win32, a development tool on those platforms is not so useful. Sure,
you could grow your own if that floats your boat. I would find it
boring and it certainly does not pay the bills (unless you can sell it,
as well.)

Out of the box, almost any Forth gives you the best tool you can use for
embedded systems programming: Forth itself. Forth is enough to
bootstrap enough Forth to do a fantastic amount of work in an incredibly
small amount of space. The Forth vendors often value-add simply by
adding utility for target-compiling, meta-compiling, ICE and debuggers.

On desktop or server systems, this is just not enough. Not without a
largish amount of third-party or vendor support. One wants the library
glue and a nice toolkit of application development utilities, which are
a little harder to provide.
Alex McDonald
2004-09-16 22:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on Windows?
--
Richard S. Westmoreland
http://www.antisource.com
Add Win32Forth to the list; version 6 (a development of Tom Zimmer's version
4.2 with many changes "under the covers") can build standalone .EXE files.
See http://groups.yahho.com/group/win32forth or www.win32forth.org for
details. DLLs will be supported -- eventually. There are some nice apps; an
editor integrated with the development environment that can be used
standalone (based on Scintilla), a picture viewer, and others.
--
Regards
Alex McDonald
Stephen Pelc
2004-09-17 11:31:19 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:40:09 -0400, "Richard S. Westmoreland"
Post by Richard S. Westmoreland
Hopefully I'm not repeating questions I asked 5 years ago...
Will Forth compile into a stand-alone executable that can be run on Windows?
VFX Forth for Windows can generate both EXEs and DLLs.
EXEs can be GUI apps or console mode apps.

Stephen

--
Stephen Pelc, ***@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads
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